Words by Amon Warmann

With his award-winning score for 2019’s The Last Black Man in San Francisco, Emile Mosseri announced himself as one of the most exciting new composers in the industry. That feeling is magnified by his work on Kajillionaire, a quirky comedy-drama written and directed by Miranda July in which Old Dolio (Evan Rachel Wood) – daughter to small-time swindlers Robert (Richard Jenkins) and his wife Theresa Dyne (Debra Winger) – has her life upended by the arrival of Melanie (Gina Rodriguez). 

When we caught up with Mosseri at his home studio in California over Zoom earlier this month, we talked about collaborating with July and Angel Olsen, the importance of end credit music, why he changes piano’s from project to project, and much more. 

When did it click for you that film and TV composing is something you wanted to do?

I kind of caught the bug for it early on when I was in high school. There's a few scores like Danny Elfman’s score for Edward Scissorhands and Nina Rota’s Godfather score. I became obsessed with all those Godfather melodies, and then I found some of his other stuff that he did for Fellini and fell in love with a lot of his music as like, a nerdy teenager living in New York. And then I moved to Boston, and I studied classical composition and film composition in school when I was 19. And I left school, and I was just playing in bands for all my 20’s, on the road. And then a few years ago I moved out to LA and started to pick it up again, and got connected with Joe [Talbot] – who made The Last Black Man in San Francisco – and from there just started to do more film and TV work. 

What was it about Kajillionaire that made you want to do the score? 

First it was Miranda July. I was a huge fan of hers for years and years, and she had needed a composer and we had a mutual friend at Plan B – the production company that produced both The Last Black Man in San Francisco and Kajillionaire. So I got introduced to Miranda, and they had screened The Last Black Man in San Francisco for her right before I met her. At the time it hadn't come out yet. And they played some music that I'd written for the show called Random Acts of Flyness. So we started talking about music and then she sent me the film, and I fell in love with it. And it was a lot to cut because it was a finished version of the film with lots of different music. But I fell in love with the film and was just thrilled to be able to work with her. Life rarely gives you that kind of gift where you get to be in a room with and work and collaborate with this great artists that you’ve admired for decades. 

Was there any particular theme or character that leapt out at you when you first watched the movie? 

I felt like the film kind of washed over me in a way. It kind of sneaks up on you in a way that's very unique. I was taken by how it's sort of framed as this bizarre heist movie. So there's music that scores this family being up to no good, so I was thinking what could my version of that music be? Then overwhelmingly, it became a love story and a very romantic film. I was really excited by that. Like, how do I write this fearlessly, unapologetically romantic music that feels like it's also cut from the same fabric as the film? It’s a strangely Hollywood story in a way. 

Is there anything you only realised after having rewatched the movie multiple times?

Yeah. It kind of reveals itself to you in time with more and more views. And when you actually get into the weeds with the director and build the thing, then you start to realise “oh, this is our theme for Old Dolio when she feels invisible”, you know, or “this is our theme for Melanie and Old Dolio when they're away from the parents.” It’s a younger, kind of sexier theme or whatever. You don't go in with this sort of calculated idea of this melody is for this and this melody is for that, and then write it down. It's more like you write a bunch of music in the spirit of the film, and you try things out to picture. I worked very closely with Miranda on this, because we had a very short amount of time to work on it. She was in the studio and we were finding this stuff together in real time. So it wasn't like you just watch it over and over and over and over again. You watch the film once or twice, as it stands, and then you kind of watch it a million times from the inside out, as you get into individual scenes. Then you take a step back, and you see this piece of music next to this piece of music, and then you start to see a thread of all this different thematic material, coming back and weaving into one another. 

You mentioned you were a massive Miranda July fan before Kajillionaire. If you could have scored one of her previous films, which one would it be? 

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. Both of those scores are so amazing. It's hard to imagine Me and You and Everyone You Know without Michael Andrews’ score. And Jon Brion, who I’m a massive fan of as well, did The Future. I don't know… it's hard because the music is a big part of those films, and why they feel the way that they feel. So, I wouldn't really want to mess with either of them. That’s a tough one. 

When you come to begin your initial ideas for a score, where do you start? Do you head straight for the computer or pick up your go-to instrument? 

The piano is usually the starting point, especially for Kajillionaire. Because there were two pieces of music that were in the film before I started. There was ‘Mr. Lonely’, which has this piano motif in it. And there was a gorgeous piece written by Summer Mastous that Gina Rodriguez’s character plays that was also baked into the film. But also the romantic side of the score lends itself to the piano and in a way. I was writing my version of this old Italian romantic Nino Rota music. It was sort of a slightly circus-y, slightly off but very romantic, timeless music that I was trying to achieve with the piano. And I was recording it with the microphone on my iPhone. And then I had an old upright piano, and then I also recorded it on another microphone and sort of split them out to get this wider sound. But yeah, most of the writing was generated from the piano. And then once we had that stuff we got kind of got into this percussive beat. Some of the things were written with drums, and breathing and chanting. That sort of primal heist music element of the score was written that way. But 90% of it was mostly stuff I used the piano for. 

What kind of piano did you use? 

It was an old upright piano. I don't have it anymore. There's a company that I love in LA: If I spend $500 on a piano and I want to buy $1,000 piano, I give back the $500 one and I pay another $500, and I keep solely upgrading, which is fun for me because then each piano that I use is only for one score and then I don’t have it anymore. It's unique to that score. I consider it to be recycling, you know. And also when you get a new instrument it sort of unlocks all this music for you. When you have the novelty or the excitement around a new instrument the songs start to write themselves and cues start to write themselves because you're reacting to a new sound and it unlocks something, you know. 

I like that a lot! You mentioned that you recorded some of your early ideas on your iPhone. Do you still have all those files? How often do you return to them? 

I feel like it all starts with the voice memo app on the iPhone for me. I'm constantly recording ideas and melodies on my voice memos. That's how it started with Kajillionaire. I was actually away making a record with my band called ‘Human Love’ when I met Miranda. And she sent me the film while I was up in Northern California. So I always sneaked away in the mornings and wrote music for the film and recorded it on my iPhone. So when I came back a month later, I could sit down with her and start playing her music. I played her my five favourite ones that felt like the most connected to Old Dolio and to her movie. But yeah, without the iPhone it would have been tricky. I don't want to sound like an iPhone shill…

This interview was brought to you by Apple…

Yeah! Maybe I’ll get a new iPhone out of this, who knows? 

I see what you're trying to do Emile! Very smart. The Kajillionaire score was crafted over five weeks. Do you like working on projects with a shorter timeframe, or do you usually prefer having a little breathing room to craft things?

It's a good question. They both have their advantages. Working on this in five weeks with Miranda, it was sort of sink or swim. We had no time to really fuck around. You were completely immersed in it, and there’s an intensity that the deadline creates that you have to live and breathe the music in this film for a certain amount of time. So the advantage to that is that you kind of go with your gut instinct. And we built this thing together, you know, in a studio, and we didn't have time to really overthink it and second guess and do a million revisions. 

The time can be a blessing and a curse. If you start to lose perspective, you can drift from something that's working into something that’s not. But more time has its advantages too. I would have been able to record an orchestra, you know, whereas with Kajillionaire I recorded solo string players and sort of built real strings with samples. But the score is also less orchestral in general. It's a little bit more modern: there's more woodwinds and synths and electronics and percussion and breathing and panting and singing, you know, so it wasn’t like The Last Black Man in San Francisco where the score was fully orchestral. I always think that if we had more time I would do this and this and this. But that will drive you crazy. So they both have their pros and cons.

You’ve mentioned that you crafted the score while Miranda was in the room, which is not how most composers typically work. What was that experience like? 

It was an amazing, magical experience having her there. And it basically changes the process which would usually be me writing something in isolation, bouncing it to picture, emailing it to her and then her digesting it, emailing me a bunch of notes back, etc. There wasn't time for that. So, I would play something with her sitting behind me on the couch in my studio and she was reacting in real time. It was higher stakes, you know, because it felt like I had to be on it. Again, it’s that sink or swim thing where you feel like you have no choice but to produce something because she's there. But having her in the room I think ultimately served the score in a huge way because it was so collaborative and we were both so immersed in it and I feel like that shines through in the score. 

Absolutely. Is there a particular piece of feedback that she gave you that you found particularly helpful?

There's so many. Just having her in the room and seeing what was working for her and why and what wasn't working for her and why… there's 1000 different things just within that that shaped the score and helped it become what it did. I think for me, the most immediately satisfying direction that I got from her was when I first played her those five melodies that I'd written for the film when I was away with my band, and seeing which ones resonated with her. That's more helpful than anything else. Her falling in love with this piece of music versus that piece of music is where you can go “okay, this is working and I can just further explore as I go down that path”, rather than just a list of notes or things like that. 

You’ve said that ‘Darker Than This’ is your favourite track on the album. Why is this the case? 

It falls at a place in the film that’s potentially the end of the road for two characters. And it's a re-imagination of another piece called ‘Rally Up’, but stripped back. I actually got a good bit of direction from Miranda: I tried that piece of music with the beat and all the bells and whistles on it for that scene. And then she suggested that we dial it back so I stripped away all of the percussion and all of the guitars and some of the woodwinds and just stripped it back to a few elements. And that scene became a lot more emotive. It proves that theory about less is more, and you should have a couple elements that make you feel something. It was also a really satisfying moment as a collaborator between Miranda and I like to unlock that scene. I remember in that moment she was talking about how the collaboration is the best part. Not when the film comes out. Not the success or whatever the film goes on to become, or the score. It's being in a room creating something with another artist that’s the best part. And she told me that while we were working on that. So that track became the soundtrack to that feeling too. It was all just part of the process, you know, and I think it's also one of my favourite scenes in the film. 

‘Strangers’ is really interesting too in that it combines many of the movie’s themes in one track. How challenging was it to get that track right?

It's fun when you take different elements from different cues and put them together. With ‘Strangers’, we would call that the sad Old Dolio theme. That was the working title on it. It's a delicate balance too, especially with a film like this, because it’s a comedy but there's a lot of pain in it, and there's a lot of darkness in it, and there's an edge to it. But the music has to be emotive and make you feel something without pulling the heartstrings too hard or feeling manipulative, so that the audience isn't saying “okay I'm laughing, but I’m not really feeling much.” There's a sort of sweet spot that you have to find and it was tricky to do that with ‘Strangers’. But it comes in a moment where Old Dolio feels like she's just become a stranger to her parents. Like, they're supposed to be strangers as part of this con and then she realises “Oh my God, I am completely a stranger to them.” So it’s a heartbreaking moment, but also a pivotal moment for her on her journey because it’s the beginning of her independence. So that was a fun one to explore.

How did you go about picking the instrumentation for Kajillionaire? 

It's a good question. I think once you sort of find your musical language that you can build the score out of you find out what the instrumentation should be. You want it to feel like it's cut from the same fabric of the film. You find the thing feels like “okay, this is our world.” Miranda creates this strange, wonderful world, and then you have to ask “what does this world sound like?” You know, that's the question. I think the piano was something that I gravitated toward. It's also very heavy on woodwinds, this score. There's a flutist named Gina Luciani. Her work is all over this score, and I utilise it in a big way. And then we had an opera singer named Theodosia Roussos. 

It's a very feminine film. So coming from The Last Black Man, which was a very masculine film about these two men in this house and their love of this house, I used an old baritone singer to be sort of the ghost of Jimmy's Grandfather in that film. There's nothing more visceral than a human voice. There's nothing that will breathe life into a score more than an actual human being singing. So I sort of peppered in Theodosia’s voice throughout the score to not be the voice of any particular character, but just to give the film that feminine but sort of also alien quality, you know, because there's something alien about her voice. She sings in a register that’s up in the stratosphere and it doesn't always read as a human voice to me, because I can't hit those notes.

Me neither! I love it when composers incorporate the sounds of the movie into their score. The ‘Bubbles Inc’ track is really effective in that regard… 

Yeah, that's a really cool one. I worked with the sound designer, and the guy who mixed the whole film – Kent Sparling. And I'd worked with him on The Last Black Man – and Kajillionaire, and my upcoming film Minari – so Kent and I have a great relationship because he’s the only person I can talk to that’s worked with the same three directors in a row as me. So we have a rapport and it's a huge benefit. With ‘Bubbles Inc’, he created this sound that is really the glue of the bubble factory where the family we follow in Kajillionaire live. And it's to a certain BPM, it's to a click. And he sent it to me and I wrote the cue around that so that the sound design and things that are happening within the world of the film and the score are bleeding into each other in a way that's it becomes singular. But I had to have a prior relationship with him in order to achieve that. So we got on the phone when I got hired for this film, and we talked about fun things we can do to collaborate. Miranda and Kent had actually worked on that bubble sound for once before I even became part of the picture. So that was really cool to do. I think that there's something very musical about his work, because he's a composer himself. There are so many people who touch this film in entirely different ways, and it’s cool when those different worlds collide.

I’ve gleaned from previous interviews you’ve given that end credits are important to you. Where does that come from, and how did you arrive at your music selection for Kajillionaire’s credits? 

Credit music is sort of like the composers’ time to shine in a way where you have a place for the music to live without picture. You have information in front of you, but you can sort of wallow in the spirit of the film. And also, it's an opportunity to leave people with a feeling, you know. Whatever song is playing when you're walking out of the theatre is the feeling that you're going to keep in your chest as you get into your car and get home and hopefully resonates with you for days on end. So it's really important, and it's really fun to find out what that is. And for this film, it was a version of the love theme called ‘Infinite Love’ that we decided to use in the end credits.

The film ends with Bobby Vinton’s version of ‘Mr. Lonely’, and then when the credits roll it's like “okay, what do we want to leave people with?” And that was a different arrangement of acoustic music that didn't end up in the film. It was written specifically for the end credits. And then after that finishes Summer Mastous’ piece that Gina plays is the last piece, which I think is a nice final feeling to leave with.

Absolutely. I'm getting the sense that you’re like me in that you don’t listen to film scores before you watch the film… 

Yeah. I feel like in a way you’re doing the director a disservice by living with music before you see the film. Ideally, when you see the film, you haven't heard the music at all, and it all just washes over us as one thing. And then whenever you hear a piece of music from it, you immediately associate it with what was happening on screen when you experienced it. If you experienced the music before the film you can develop your own associations with it. So I prefer to do it all-in-one. But I don't always live by that. I remember I listened to Nick Britell’s score for If Beale Street Could Talk because I hadn't gotten a chance to see the film and I was dying to hear the music. And I fell in love with that record before I'd seen the film, which I also loved. But yeah, I don't always have the self-restraint to wait because it's easier to listen to an album on Spotify which is instantly rather than get to the theatre.

Between ‘Mr Lonely’ in Kajillionaire and ‘Flowers in your Hair’ in The Last Black Man in San Francisco, you’re the perfect person to ask this question to… What’s the secret to a good cover?

I’ll start with The Last Black Man… Mike Marshall sings that song in the film on camera. And he's accompanied by a tuba played by Norwegian jazz artist Daniel Herskedal. And I think that song for people in San Francisco was so played out. Like they hear it so much. It needed to be reimagined in a way that felt like it was completely new, and had a completely different meaning. And that film is a love letter to the city of San Francisco. And it's about Black ownership. And it's about exploring and feeling when you love something that doesn't love you back, and I think there's a pain in that version. The short answer is the secret to great covers is to have a Mike Marshall singing that song. He is an unbelievable vocalist, and you can't lose when you work with someone like that. The same is true of Angel Olsen. These are two of the greatest singers alive. So already you’re set up for success. 

But I think you also have to honour the song. These are incredible songs to begin with that don't need new versions so you have to really kind of rise to it to make something that's worth making because the originals are so great. But I think with San Francisco that song took on a whole new meaning and a whole new shape and colour emotionally with Mike’s performance and with Daniel's tubas and with what Joe and I did with the arrangement. I had a vocalist named Camilla Gibson sing on it as well and she added so much to the track, and then we played bass and recorded strings to flesh it out. 

But for ‘Mr. Lonely’, it's a song that's so synonymous with the film. I almost treated it like a theme in the film. Miranda had this instrumental version of it being peppered throughout the score. But we wanted to have a woman sing it because it's such a feminine film. And it's a song called ‘Mr. Lonely’. So we thought it would be cool to have one. 

I want to know more about your collaboration with Angel Olsen. What was it about her voice that made her the perfect choice to come on board and sing this cover?

There's a there's a pain in her voice, and a classic quality to her voice that is so special. And she has a vulnerability in her voice and her performances. There's a reason why people fall in love with her music, and obviously her amazing writing. She is also sort of influenced by classic songwriting, too. ‘Mr Lonely’ is a 60’s song. So Miranda and I made a list of dream people to do the song for the album. And she was number one on the list. We got lucky because she happened to be in LA right when we were looking to finish the record. But it was sort of a no brainer with her if we could get her to do it. 

And Miranda was really producing the track alongside me in that moment where she was pushing Angel to be more vulnerable, to almost be so vulnerable that she could barely get the words out in the beginning of this song. She sort of directed her the way that she would direct an actor and it was really cool for me to be in the room and see that. It was a really magical day.

The Last Black Man in San Francisco was your first movie. What lessons did you take from that movie that you then brought to Kajillionaire?

I don't know if there's any specific lessons. It was my first time doing it so I learned so much just from the experience. You soak up so much. Basically with that film I told Joe [Talbot] that I could do something that I had never done before. You just put yourself in a situation where you have no choice but to have to figure out how to do it. And in that process, you're soaking up all this knowledge in your craft and you're fine tuning your craft and sharpening your skill set, just by doing it. I think I learned a lot from Joe about how to build a score. The director has a better emotional understanding of the film than I do when I start the process of scoring. And I think embracing that and utilising that was a big lesson I learned working on that film. 

There could be a great piece of music that can work really well to a scene, but in the big picture of the whole film it also has to recall this feeling from earlier in the film. Joe can better track the psychological and emotional arcs of his characters in the story than I can on my own with a piece of music. So I think just leaning into that and having it be collaboration was something I learned from him. 

A lot of the time you’ll be on tour with your band while working on a film or TV project. Have you developed any strategies to get yourself into a certain musical mind-set when you’re working on two things simultaneously that are very different from each other?

The strategy is tricking your brain into doing work when it doesn't feel like work. Because I feel like the best creativity comes when it doesn't feel like “oh, I have to do it. This is my job.” Even if I'm working on two films at the same time, if I'm on a less exciting stage on one film I'll procrastinate, and I'll work on the more exciting part of the writing process of another film. And you know, the same is true with being in a band and making records. If I'm writing a song when I'm supposed to be working on a score, that song will turn out better than if I was like “Oh, this is my writing day for myself.” So it's constantly tricking your brain, and working in different mediums lends itself to that. Because you're, you're keeping it fresh, you know? You have different outlets for different parts of your creative mind.

What are you currently listening to? 

Let’s have a look on my Spotify… The Electric Prunes, who are a band from the 60’s. Sometimes I put Spotify on shuffle and then find all kinds of stuff. I don't have any one record that I've been wearing out right now. I'm in the market for one. 

Do you keep up to date with film scores? 

Yeah, I do. Britell’s If Beale Street Could Talk record in particular is so beautiful. I listen to Mica Levi scores. I love her band [Micachu and the Shapes]. I listen to mix music. I listen to Nina Rota’s music and sort of a lot of the obvious ones. I listen to Jonny Greenwood’s scores. I listen to more non-film music than film music. But yeah I'm always on the lookout for cool scores. I’ve been listening to this old score by Riz Ortolani. He’s an old Italian composer that scored a horror movie called Cannibal Holocaust, but the score is really kind of soothing, oddly enough. Full disclosure: I haven't even seen this film, but there's sort of this juxtaposition and I've fallen in love with it.